BEN GRIFFIN: You don't necessarily have to have all the resources in the world to be really good at something. And you see these stories all the time, in all different sports, and people come up from different backgrounds and breaking through and making it. And I think it really comes down to you got to love the game, and you got to be super confident, but you got to be prepared.
MASON REED: I'm Mason Reed, and this is Invested in the Game, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each episode, we tell the story of remarkable people who have committed their time, resources, and emotional energy into making golf the wonderful—and sometimes maddening—game that it is.
On today's episode—which, can you believe it, is our final show of Season 1 before we come back in the fall—I'm speaking with PGA Tour star Ben Griffin. If you're a casual sports fan, Ben may not be a household name like Scottie Scheffler or Rory McIlroy, but that's all changing. Also changing is what people know Ben for. To date, his brand, if you will, has been defined by the time he took stepping away from golf several years ago, when he had negative $17,000 to his name, or his trademark aviator sunglasses that he wears to help with floaters in his eyes.
But with each passing day and golf event, Ben's becoming more known for what he is, an elite pro golfer. The stats tell the story. This year alone, Ben has risen to top 20 in the world, top 10 in FedEx points. He's made over 8 million bucks, 8 million, and will be representing the U.S. at the Ryder Cup once the team selections are finalized.
Oh, and he's won twice this season, including at our event, the Charles Schwab Challenge. Ben and I talk about life on the road, his commitment to the game, and his favorite stat called Strokes Gained Course Management, which I think he's made up and trademarked. Ben's a great chat, and he might just be your new favorite golfer after this. We recorded this episode immediately before the Rocket Classic, where Ben finished, wait for it, top 15, his 11th top 25th finish of the year.
I hope you enjoy hearing Ben's story as much as I did.
Ben Griffin, thank you for being on Invested in the Game. Appreciate your time. I know you're probably more demands on your time these days. Is that, is that true?
BEN GRIFFIN: Yeah, probably so. A lot of things have changed the last couple months, but they've all been good issues. I can handle most.
MASON: I said the good problems, right? If this is what comes with winning, you'll make a little extra time here and there for a podcast or a media interview, some of the obligations you end up with.
BEN: Totally.
MASON: We're going to do this a little bit out of order chronologically. We're going to talk first about the current season and all that's been going on, and then we'll later talk a little bit about your introduction to golf and some of your early years in it. But first, I just wanted to say, well, thanks. And also the reason you're here is you won our event. You won the Charles Schwab challenge, so thanks for being here. And also thanks because recently you were on Smylie's podcast, Smylie Kaufman's podcast, and you might not have noticed this, but I did. He mentioned our tournament about five or six times as "Colonial." The five or six times you talked about it, you said, "Charles Schwab." So I want to say whatever they're doing at the PGA Tour to acknowledge sponsors, you're doing a great job there. It was noticed.
BEN: Doing my best.
MASON: So let's talk a little bit about Colonial. That was your first solo when you had won just a few weeks …
BEN: Colonial or Charles Schwab?
MASON: Charles Schwab. Sorry, let's talk about Charles Schwab. The first solo win after you won the Zurich. Yeah, so you're correcting me now. To me, it seems like all different kinds of golfers have won that event. You don't necessarily need to be a bomber. Zach Johnson, Kevin Kisner have won that event in the past, but long hitters have played very well there, too. What's your take on that golf course, and what do you think it takes to win, or if either from your own experience or just observing the field and what goes on there?
BEN: Yeah, totally. You know, I think there's several courses on the PGA Tour that are really good at rewarding kind of the best golfer that week and not tailoring towards someone's certain game. We see certain weeks of the year, whether it be the Mexico Open or like the Byron Nelson, where it's like, you got to pretty much be a long hitter at those weeks to get in the mix. You know, if you look at the guys who are finishing top five on that leaderboard, all of them are hitting it over 300 yards. When you look at a course like Colonial Country Club, or you look at a course like …
MASON: Sawgrass maybe …
BEN: … or the RBC Heritage, yeah, TPC Sawgrass does an excellent job of not tailoring towards a certain person's game. It's more like, "All right, if you're hitting the fairways, you're going to be able to attack these pins a little bit more," whether or not you're long or not, you can still attack because some of the par 4s, yes, the longer hitter might have like a gap wedge as opposed to a 9-iron, but they're still scoreable clubs. So yeah, I think it's just one of those courses that's stood the test of time. Over time, it's never kind of let up in any shape or form. It's always been a really demanding and tough test, especially on the weekends when it kind of starts to get firm and fast and you get the swirly winds. You get the predominant winds above the trees, but beneath the trees, it kind of swirls around, and it tries to trick you a little bit. And so it's just a tough course that you're constantly trying to manage.
And you know, at that stretch, you know, a month and a half ago, I mean, I was hitting the ball really well and hitting it long. And so I was able to take advantage of kind of both of those things, which is probably why I was able to separate myself and same with Matti Schmid, who's a long hitter, but he was hitting it really well, like hitting a ton of fairways. And so that's kind of what it takes out there. And that's what's beautiful about Colonial Country Club.
MASON: What was happening specifically with your game that week? I mean, you just mentioned some of it is you're hitting it a little bit longer. I know you've worked on speed and some other things. We don't need to get so technical. But what was happening with your game that came together at that particular time about a month ago?
BEN: Well, I think if you look at the first three holes, I just dominated those three holes. I think I played those first three holes somewhere in the like 12-under range for the week, maybe even more. And then it's kind of like just holding on the rest of course, like, because one and two very scoreable, like you hit good tee shots on one, which I hit good tee shots three of the four rounds. Like I was able to birdie and make an eagle there the final round, and then hole number two, I birdied every single round. I was able to drive it up. And two is tricky because, yes, it's a short hole, and yes you can be a bomber and take advantage of it, but it's such a … you're playing angle golf to all those pins because it gets so firm, and so the pin might be on the right side, and you're almost better off like hitting in the left rough than you are on the right edge of the fairway to that pin. So like understanding that is important, like a lot of maybe guys playing there for the first time don't understand the importance of like kind of the angles especially as that course firms up. So this is my third year playing there. I feel like I used a lot of past experience, and then a hole like 17, the wind always plays more than what you expect. And I was a victim of that actually the final round when I still went long hitting a 9-iron from 194, but there's just little things and little quirks in that golf course that you kind of have to learn. And you know, I don't know how many first-time winners there's been recently there, but I feel like probably a decent amount of those guys that have won have at least played there once or twice in the past.
So yeah, for me, my game, obviously I made a lot of putts, was putting it well. You know, there's a lot of shorter maybe par 4s, but it's hard to kind of get close birdie looks. And so you've got to make some of those outside, you know, 15-, 20-footers to get in the mix. And I definitely did that.
MASON: Well, congrats on that. Do you … I've noticed that you have both this humility and confidence, and maybe that is useful on the PGA Tour. I don't know if you agree with that, but did you … I have to preface this question by saying that because I'm wondering if you thought a solo win was coming at some point. Did you feel in advance of the Charles Schwab Challenge, and maybe on the heels of Zurich after you'd won the team event, but … that you had it and that it was a matter of time? Did you feel like it was coming?
BEN: Totally. Definitely did. You know, I just kind of finally got over the hump with Andrew winning the Zurich Classic. And I feel like I was able to kind of lean back on that experience that week at the Charles Schwab. And I always … I constantly talk about in interviews, you know, whether it's a podcast or whether it's, know, with the PGA Tour Golf Channel, whatever, I talk about the importance of staying aggressive down the stretch. And I think we saw it last week at the Travelers, just how important it is to stay extremely aggressive the whole time, and no lead is ever safe.
And so at the Zurich, I mean, we just kept kind of pushing and finally, you know, made the long put on 17 for birdie, which kind of almost sealed it. And so, yeah, going to the Charles Schwab, I knew that no lead was really safe, and I was trying to keep the pedal down the whole time. Now, the course was just playing extremely difficult. I didn't hit a green in regulation on my last six holes. Even though I felt mentally and physically like I was hitting good shots, I just wasn't giving myself birdie putts, and that's what that golf course can do. And that's what makes that course so challenging. I think there was only six or seven birdies in the last five groups. So we're playing threesomes. So that's 15 guys, and there was only like six or seven total birdies on those last six holes on Sunday.
MASON: Incredible.
BEN: Someone told me that at least. We might have to fact check it, but I haven't gone and looked …
MASON: Close enough. I think it's close enough for this.
BEN: But I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure it's about that. Because I know in my group, me, Matti, and Ricky, I know Matti made one, and then I think Ricky may have made one, but he might not have even made one. Or no, Matti did, because he chipped in on 18.
MASON: He chipped in on 18, yeah, which made your four-footer about four and a half.
BEN: 18, yep. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So.
MASON: So in addition to all the other spoils that come with winning, you got the '92 Schwab Defender, which I think is on its way to you one way or another, if it hasn't been delivered yet. What are the odds that, you know, we pick a blueish color every year. We try to make it somewhat close to Schwab blue. The thing is basically Carolina blue. I mean, was it meant to be this year for you?
BEN: You know, it's been Carolina blue every year, and I don't know what I was doing the last two years, but yeah, this year, I mean, seeing the car, after coming off of a win I was feeling good, and I tried to match the car with my Sunday outfit actually. I was like, "I'm going to wear blue because I want to match the car in the picture." So yeah, I mean, it's pretty cool to not only just win a car, but win one that's like kind of almost a dream color of a cool car for me to have. I had always told Dana when, my fiancé, when I won, I was going to buy myself like a cool maybe sports car or something, some sort of car, and you know, winning the Charles Schwab … I didn't do anything after Zurich. I just kept playing, and I wasn't even focused on cars. But then it was just perfect timing to win the Charles Schwab because I was like, man, I get a really cool car. And it's also the color that I was like kind of planning on getting of a light blue.
MASON: That's perfect. Well, we love getting the stories back from past winners and the things that they do, like Jason Kokrak would go pick his kids up to school in this giant Power Wagon, and Davis Riley uses his Corvette for date night. So you're going to have to report back to us where this fits …
BEN: It's going to be my daily car. I'm using, I'm driving that car until the odometer breaks.
MASON: I love it.
BEN: A lot of people are like, "Well, it could be like an investment or whatever." I'm like, "No, this is a car that I'm never going to give up. And I might as well put as many miles on it as possible."
MASON: I'm glad to hear you say that because when we build them, they're intended to be driven. They're not meant to just sit in a garage or be a museum piece. So they are purposely designed and built to be driven. So I'm glad to hear you do that. So let's just zoom out a little. We're talking about the Charles Schwab Challenge. Let's zoom out just a little bit on this season you're having, which is pretty epic. You've got two wins. You've played, I think, in two majors and top 10 to both of them. You're eighth in the Ryder Cup, which blows my mind. It's like, "What does it take to be an automatic qualifier?" We won't go too deep on that. But hopefully that'll sort itself out as needed. You're sixth, I think, in FedEx. You're top 20 in the world. I think I've got most of this all correct. It's been an awesome year. It wasn't totally out of the blue, though. The last couple of years, you've made several million dollars on tour. You've played well.
But have you stopped at any moment in the last month or two and just enjoyed it or had some fun with what's happened this season? Or are you just like, "I've got to keep grinding. I got to keep playing events. I got to keep earning points. I got to try to make a Ryder Cup." Do you have to pause to say like, "Nice job," just so you can enjoy it?
BEN: I definitely have a grinder's mindset. You know, I used to, as a kid and in college, I used to talk about, "Man, winning on the PGA Tour, like, there's no way I'll play the next week. I'm just going to celebrate and hang out with friends and stuff." Now that I'm on Tour, I'm like, I'll celebrate the night of, like Sunday night. And then I'm pretty much right back to work, like pretty much fly to the next event Monday, which is what I did the last two, and last two wins, and kind of get back into the gym and get back to playing and practicing for the next week.
And so I think that's why I played so well kind of after the Charles Schwab is because I never took time to actually like … yes, I took time to maybe celebrate and … but I didn't really like assess necessarily what I accomplished. I was just using it as experience and as fuel to go to the next and try to do it again. And I think you kind of have to do that mid-season. Like after the season, sure, I can celebrate a great season and, you know, hang out with family and friends, like middle of the season, especially a year like this, a Ryder Cup year, I've got the pedal fully down and just kind of focusing on each week and trying to play my best and trying to rack up wins. I mean, it's what Tiger always did. It's what some of the most dominant players in the world of golf over the last however many years, that's what they did. The best players would go to the next week, and they just try to beat out the guys that they were playing against.
And so, yeah. I mean, I'm here this week at the Rocket Mortgage, and I'm totally focused on trying to win and just continue to build points. And that's what you got to do. There's so many tournaments on the PGA tour, and it's kind of … a lot of guys, it's hard to pick a schedule. And for me, I just pretty much play every week.
MASON: It's incredible. I was just telling our team before you and I jumped on about that, that you play a lot of events, and does that catch up with you at some point possibly? I mean, is it … you know, you don't have a crystal ball, but will you ever maybe say, "I need to listen to my body? I got to take a week." Do you have to keep monitoring that?
BEN: Yeah, no, I listen to my body every day. I mean, I have my trainer and PT on the road with me. So it's arguably easier for me to stay on the road than actually go home. And when I go home, I actually am renovating a house. So we don't have a kitchen. I don't have a couch. We don't have anything. So life on the road is way easier for me, which I think is a benefit. You know, some guys might really love going home and, you know, have families and whatnot. And like for me, it's just me and Dana mostly on the road.
We enjoy traveling, and I'm really good at not over-practicing. Like it's Wednesday morning, I haven't swung once since, what was last week? I don't even remember … the Travelers. They all blend together. It's so funny.
MASON: That's life on the road. We just got a window into life on the road right there. You're like, "I don't know, where was I, Connecticut?"
BEN: I finished on Sunday at Travelers, flew here Monday morning, workout, PT, and worked out yesterday, was going to actually play a few holes, but the storms came in. So I didn't. I haven't swung a club yet, and it's … I won't swing a club until Wednesday at 11:30. And that's the thing, I don't over practice. So if anything, I might be under-practicing a touch this week, but I'm not really too concerned about it. You know, I'm going to go out there and have a good range session and then cruise into the pro-am, and I'll be just fine. I'll only see nine holes of the golf course, but I played here in years past. And I think that's what I'm really good at. I'm really good at managing not only my time but managing my body and energy and just making sure I feel as fresh as possible by Thursday. And it helps that I've played on tour for a few years. So I know a lot of these golf courses, and I don't have to do the same preparations that rookies might have to do or what I do at like major championships when we have alternating venues.
So I think I'm really good at listening to my body, and like honestly going home, we actually just got a washer and dryer last week. So I have to go out and like take my laundry to somewhere else, do coin laundry or whatever. So like for me, when I go home, it's like I have to unpack and then figure out how to pack again.
MASON: You're out of your routine at home. Your routine's on the road.
BEN: My routine is on the road. Like I only, I'll only spend probably 30 days at home this year. We're getting married later this year. And so I'm fine with that. I'll be on the road 11 months of the year, rack up Mariott points, stay at Airbnbs, whatever it is.
MASON: That's incredible. So you seem also … and tell me if I'm wrong on this, but you seem responsible, mature. I don't know, I think you're 29 years old, and you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders. So you don't seem like the guy that gets these paydays and is going and buying a Lambo. Like you'll drive the Charles Schwab car that you got. You'll stay at Marriotts and Airbnbs. Do you take the long view? Are you frugal? Like, where is this coming from that you seem to have such a such a good perspective on life and money and how you make decisions and things like that?
BEN: Totally. I was in the hole. I had $17,000 in credit card debt four years ago, when I was trying to play professional golf and stepped away, became a loan officer, and then was very fortunate to have a couple sponsors step into my life and bring me back to golf. And so I have a great perspective of seeing both sides of being really poor and being really rich. So it's interesting. I'm extremely grateful, extremely blessed. But you know, I definitely take the long-term approach on investment strategies and different things to do with my money. I'm very … I wouldn't say I'm necessarily frugal. I will spend on certain things that maybe either, one, make my life easier or, two, are important for business or spending on having a home for future family, stuff like that. But majority of my money, I mean … financial advisors, I do a lot of stuff on my own actually.
MASON: I knew you were going to say that, but that's fine.
BEN: Yeah, honestly on Monday and Tuesdays, like you can talk to my agent. He'll ask me to do things. I'm like, "Sorry, I have a business meeting. I'm looking at a deck and looking at private equity," or whatever it might be. Like, you know, I'm actually running a property management business right now, actually on the side. I arguably could be spending more time on that than actually like leading into golf tournaments. But that's a story for another …
MASON: Seems like you have a good system. Whatever you're doing is working for you. If that's about how you live on the road, that's how you treat practice, your Mondays and Tuesdays, I'd say don't mess with that until it …
BEN: Yeah, I've always been passionate about investing and business-related things. And four years ago, I didn't have any money. So you can't really do anything. When you have capital, it's like, it becomes really fun. And I hate like kind of talking about it because I want to like inspire more people to like build wealth and try to do it. But it's really hard to kind of, one, build the wealth, and then once you do it actually becomes a lot easier, because the work you can kind of put off on to different people, employees, whatever so they can build their own wealth and then hopefully do the same thing that I'm doing. So it's been really fun to go down a little bit of a business journey, honestly, while I'm having success on tour. So I'd say I'm not buying a Lamborghini. I'm buying, you know, it could be anything. It could be buying real estate, student housing, private equity deal, or whatever it could be.
MASON: Wow, we're going to someday do a different podcast with you just on responsible investing, financial planning, but we'll save that for another time. So for people who follow golf a little bit, your brand has been the guy wearing sunglasses, the guy who took some time away from golf. Are you ready to move on from that narrative, or do you feel particularly, in the part of that that's taking some time away from golf and coming back, that that's an important story to tell because it inspires people?
Like how do feel about that? Because I know that I have to imagine—I don't want to put words in your mouth—but I have to imagine at some point you're tired of like repeating the same things over and over again of why you wear sunglasses or the circumstances for stepping away from golf. How do you feel about that at this point?
BEN: Yeah, it's an interesting topic because I do love the story, and I love being able to inspire. At the same time, I love being an elite golfer. And so when I go into pressers and stuff, I kind of almost want to talk more about my golf game, what I'm doing, how I'm getting better. I think that's cooler from a fan's perspective of kind of understanding the day to day, you know, what I'm putting in, what I'm working on, what I'm thinking about on the golf course.
And a lot of the media questions I particularly get are a lot on my past. Like, yes, it's an incredible story, and I'm very grateful for everyone that's kind of created this story for me. I shouldn't even be playing golf really right now, and I just got unique opportunities. And I think whenever anyone gets a unique opportunity, like something that I did, which not everyone gets them, but if you do, just take full advantage of them and make the lifestyle changes or whatever you need to make the best of opportunity. And so yeah, I mean, nowadays I like to talk about being an elite golfer. It's way more fun. It's kind of what, you know, when my sponsors got me back to golf, that's what they wanted to see, you know. They didn't really know where I'd go, but now that they see me as an elite golfer, they want me to be known as an elite golfer. They don't want me to be known as, you know, this guy who stepped away and got back. But I think it's cool to talk about from time to time, no doubt.
But yeah, I mean, like my focus right now, it's regardless of what questions I'm being asked, it's just focused on trying not to think too much about my journey so much and really focusing on like where I foresee my future and kind of making the right goals and making the right steps to achieve some of those goals.
MASON: Well, it's great. I have to assume that what happens is that new stories replace old ones at some point. And so hopefully the new stories you're creating just become what people know. And you just move on. Not that there's anything wrong with it. You just start to say, "Oh, remember that epic match at the Ryder Cup" or "Remember that nails putt on 18 at the Charles Schwab Challenge?" Just …
BEN: Totally.
MASON: You create new lore, new stories.
Now, we're going to go backwards. So I said we're going out of order a little bit. But do you remember the first time you had a golf club in your hand? And when was that? How old were you? And what was the beginning?
BEN: I don't remember because I didn't have much consciousness, but I was like literally 13 months old, I think. My mom had just given birth to my brother. We're 13 months apart, and there's pictures of me swinging on the range with her, like either at the end of pregnancy or just recovering. I think honestly, I could even be like literally one years old. So pretty much when I could walk is when I had a club in my hand. Now, I didn't start playing competitively until I was 11. So there was kind of a time span there where I was playing different sports, soccer, baseball, basketball, was doing everything. And then I got to a point, I remember I got … I was playing on a basketball team, and I remember I wasn't in the game at the end of the game, and I wanted to feel like I could contribute to the outcome of the game. And I was like, "I need to play an individual sport." And my dad was like, "Well, you could just play golf." And so I just started playing golf.
MASON: So do you credit … it's got to be both of your parents, but the first photo or the thing was your mom at a driving range, is that right?
BEN: Yeah, I have pictures, yeah, with my mom. She was in the side of the frame. That's how we kind of tell how old I was. And then my dad is helping me with my golf swing a little bit. But yeah, I have pictures of myself swinging, me and my dad, me and my mom. It's pretty cool to go back and look at those pictures. But yeah, I mean, I had no consciousness. I probably could barely even talk. I could probably say "ball." That was it.
MASON: You had junior success. You're an All-American at UNC. So when, though, did you realize that you weren't just good, that maybe you were better than your peers? Or when were you like, "Man, I might be kind of good at this thing"?
BEN: I mean, probably junior golf, just playing, you know, against some of the best players in the world, not even just the United States. The AJGA had invitationals, and they'd invite people from all over the world to really come and play. It was majority Americans, just 'cause the events were all, you know, stateside. I would say junior golf is when I knew I was really, really good, you know, high school, started high school, and then definitely like junior and senior year when I was, you know, first team junior All-Americans. And it was me, Scotty Scheffler, Morikawa, Sam Burns. I mean, it's the same guys. I think what's really cool, and looking back on this is at the time, you know, we all have aspirations of being on the PGA Tour and then, you know, we all go to college, we have different experiences, but we're all still good at golf, and we turn pro, and when you turn pro, at least, you know, six, seven years ago, you kind of start at scratch.
Like, Scottie Scheffler was doing Monday qualifiers. We were all kind of getting ready for the Korn Ferry Q school. Pretty much everyone that was a senior, even the best players. A couple of the guys were getting sponsor invites, Morikawa, Hovland a year after. I never competed much against Hovland. But you kind of go through Q school, and it feels like farfetched to actually get to the PGA Tour those first couple of years. You got to like really grind, and you might not have the initial success.
You know, Scottie wasn't winning right away. It took him a little bit of time to finally, you know, kind of break through and then get his PGA Tour card. But now that we're all on the PGA Tour, we're like, "Man, it's crazy." Like how many guys that we were all competing against in junior golf, you know, Doug Ghim, Will Gordon, there's so many PGA Tour players that we're all like, you know, top 30 golfers. And we're like, "Yeah, you know, we hope to be on the PGA Tour." And now looking back, it's like, "Man, we actually like made it."
MASON: We did it. Yeah.
BEN: But when you're on the Korn Ferry Tour, you're looking at the PGA, the stars, and you're like, "Holy crap, these guys are so good. They're on the PGA Tour. Like, how do I elevate my game to get there?" But it's just a process. I think to, like, junior golfers today, it's like, you've got to realize, yes, this is extremely attainable to get to the PGA Tour. You've just got to continue to make the right decisions and smart decisions and surround yourself with the right people to help get you in the right place out of college. And then make sure you have the right mindset when you turn pro to keep the pedal down and don't buy your Lamborghinis and just focus on playing really good golf, and everything else takes care of itself.
MASON: I love it. So I was going to ask you this later, but it's related to what you were just saying, which is in your mind, what separates the guys that eventually do break through to the PGA Tour and some of the guys that don't? At least in your experience? Because my assumption just from what I see is that everybody's good. Like the guys on the Korn Ferry Tour are excellent. And there's probably guys you played with in college that you may say, "That guy was the best golfer I've ever played against" who's not on the tour now. I'm just guessing.
BEN: Totally.
MASON: What do you think … and I'll just add one other thing, which is a couple of other people we've had on the on the podcast, Andy Johnson, Dottie Pepper, both said that not the best golfer at 16 isn't always the best one at 17, 20, 25. They're like, people change. But what's your take on all that? And what ultimately separates somebody breaking through and people that maybe don't ever quite get there, do you think?
BEN: I think you go to the range at any Korn Ferry Tour event or PGA Tour event, and you watch 90% of those players—I say 90 because 10% maybe are struggling on any given week—but you watch 90% of players, and you're watching him hit balls, and you're like, "Man, they're hitting it on the absolute string. Like, there's no way they can lose this week." And then you look at the next player, and he's doing the same, and you're like, "Wow, all these guys are extremely physically talented." So what separates them is more drive, confidence, maybe leaning on experience down the stretch.
But a lot of it's all mental. Because the physical talent is pretty … I shouldn't say equivalent—everyone has different parts of their game that that are better than others. But everyone's got like, you know, at least one thing that they're really good at. But on top of that, they're just extremely mentally confident and driven. I think some of the guys that maybe, you know, are … I shouldn't say like throwing clubs, but maybe aren't like are a little too negative on themselves on the golf course or let anger kind of get to them. Those are the guys that are going to kind of struggle from week to week.
And the guys that are more positive and are OK with making a bogey from time to time and are more focused on their process are going to have way more success. That's why Scotty Scheffler's so good. Like he does make mistakes from time to time. We just saw him last week make a triple bogey on the first hole in the third round. And it honestly kind of took him out of the tournament a touch, but he still hung in there and finished like fifth.
And that's what makes him so good is because he's able to bounce back from those mistakes. I think the guys that are really physically talented but make those mistakes and compound them, those are the guys that tend to struggle and miss cuts, even though they're capable of going on strings and making tons of birdies. Just letting those bad swings get to them and they're thinking too much about their swing rather than playing the actual game. Another thing I'll talk about is kind of owning your swing. I don't think there's … if you look at the guys that are top 20 in the world, everyone has kind of a completely different golf swing from another guy. So trying not to replicate a certain swing, especially when you're a junior golfer. More owning your golf swing and just focusing on your individual craft is super important. Gotta have kind of goals with your swing, goals with your golf game, goals with short game and be disciplined in your practice and try to work towards those and be really efficient at what you have.
MASON: So I tried to look last night in anticipation of speaking with you about some of your stats and strokes gained in other places. And I couldn't tell where you have like this really one-dimensional thing that you dominate other things. It looks pretty well rounded, I guess I would say.
And in fact, and I mean this with love, it doesn't look like you're crushing, like you're like number one in driving, number one in putting, but you clearly score. It looks like you score well. Can you help explain that for people? Some people just drive the hell out of the ball, and that's what they do, and then they figure everything else from there. But yours seems a little bit more balanced, I guess I would say.
BEN: Yeah. So kind of going back to my, what I said about everyone has their kind of at least one thing that they're really good at. Yes. I'm extremely well-rounded from like my physical game, but what separates me is my course management. I don't think there's any player on this tour that knows how to manage a course better than I do. And I think that saves me a shot a round, probably. And that's kind of my thing. Like a lot of people, like, I can't quantify that. You can't go on stats and say like, "What's his 'strokes gained, course management'?" Like you can't, you can't do that.
But I think I'm the best at that. I think I'm better than Scottie Scheffler at it. I think Scottie Scheffler's a straighter hitter than me, hits his irons a little bit better. We probably putt it pretty equivalently. But what I can do to separate myself from him is like out-manage him on certain golf courses.
MASON: So like you were talking about on number two at Charles Schwab, you're saying like really understanding about where to be, even if it means left rough, I'll make that decision because I like my odds better from there.
BEN: Totally. And I think that could be maybe what has prevented Scotty from not winning the Charles Schwab, because every single statistic would tell you that he should win there. And what makes that course so difficult is there's a lot of random course variables that make it tougher. He always talks about like, in interviews, which I think is awesome about "It doesn't matter what score wins every week. I just want to be rewarded for good shots and punished for bad shots." And I think the Charles Schwab Challenge at Colonial, it basically requires you to be extremely precise, and you get punished very quickly if you're just a little bit off, and he can be a touch off from time to time. And then if, you know, if you let those holes and shots where you cost, you turn those into bogeys, it can be hard to catch up there because the winning score is only 12 under par most years. So yeah, I'm really good at course managing, I'd say, around my game kind of ebbs and flows certain parts of my game. I'm pretty streaky like, yeah, my driving, if you look at my driving, my statistics for the entire year, maybe like, you know, slightly better than average. But on any given week, I'm like top three or four. And then putting, same thing on my good weeks, I'm top three or four. So you can look at, like, overall statistics over a period of a season. But every golfer kind of gets streaky with a certain part of their game.
And when they do, they got to take advantage of those weeks when they're either putting really well or getting their irons really well and time it up with a golf course because every golf course requires maybe something a little bit different than another one. One course, it's way more important. Like maybe last week, it's way more important to make putts because everyone's making a lot of birdies at Travelers, most days except for the windy days. But you've got to make putts. So whoever's going to take advantage of their good putting, you want it to be at the Travelers.
Whereas at the U.S. Open, you kind of want to maybe be a little bit more in the fairway and take advantage of those weeks where you're driving really well. So it's very week dependent. That's what's really cool about our sport is we play different courses. No other sport does it. Everyone always has the same metrics of a field or a tennis court, whatever it might be. Golf, it's just all these different variables. It's what makes this game so cool, and you can travel and have new experiences every single day or even play the same course from one day to the next. You can play every single day for a year, and you're going to have a different experience every single day, whether it's wind, pin location, whatever.
MASON: Yeah, tee box, tee markers, anything.
BEN: Yep.
MASON: We talked about your parents introducing you to the game pretty early on and junior golf around age 11-ish. What role did your parents play throughout that? You know, I have two kids, being a parent with kids in sports is difficult enough. Having one that's traveling, probably, and all that and also expensive. You know, I think golf isn't cheap to play.
Can you just talk a little about the role your parents played in your junior golf years and up through, you know, until you got to UNC?
BEN: Yeah, one thing my parents never did was force anything upon me. What they did is they always gave me opportunities, even when, you know, times were tough and we were bankrupt. Like, I was still going to the public golf course and was able to chip and putt, and it's because I loved golf, and I was able to get dropped off. And even though this game's really expensive, we found ways to make it work.
And tournaments, once I turned 16, I mean, I loved golf so much, and I was kind of already a little bit more individual than a lot of my other friends, like I would book my own flights kind of when I was 16 and go to tournaments and figure it out without my parents, which is crazy. I was staying in hotels before 18, which you're not allowed to by myself. You go to check in and they'd be like, "Where's your dad?" "Oh, he's in the car. He's going to come in a little bit. He's got a phone call. He wanted me to check in, like give me the key," and they give me the key, and then my dad just obviously wouldn't be there. So I just be at the hotel, and I'd just figure it out.
It'd be tough some weeks because I couldn't get a rental car. So a lot of the ones that I actually had to fly to, the AJGA did a great job of providing transportation to a host hotel and whatnot. So I was able to play in a lot of those events by myself. Now, don't get me wrong. My parents would definitely show up and support me from time to time, but that was their way of allowing me to play a lot of junior golf and stay competitive while they could, you know, work and provide for our family. So extremely blessed and fortunate to have had parents like that, that just honestly gave me opportunities, whatever it was, my dad was always going to make sure I could do it. Because he would talk about how his dad, his dad was literally … I mean, his parents made nothing. Both my parents didn't really come from a ton. And his dad would always do whatever he could to help my dad with whatever opportunity he wanted. I remember he told me a story about his dad buying him a set of golf clubs when he was 16 and literally took every single dollar from his paycheck from like that month to get him a set of clubs.
And just the things that his dad did for him. And I think my dad wanted to do the same for me, but it's hard. It's hard parenting, especially now. I haven't gotten into it. I don't have any kids yet, but I'm definitely, like, thinking about how I should prepare when that time comes because all a parent wants to do is make their kids happy. And it's kind of hard sometimes, especially with sports because there's a lot of sport options out there. You have friends that are trying to take you one way or another. And I think it's … for me, at least, it was … I always really, really loved golf. And I was excited when I was at school, I wanted to go to the golf course right away. And so my parents did an awesome job of allowing me to be able to do that and making golf as affordable as possible.
MASON: It's a little bit of myth-busting because there's, yes, there's some professional golfers who came from wealthy families, or they belong to private clubs, and they've, they had Trackmans when they were 12 years old or whatever. There's that, yes. But then not everybody comes up through that path. And so I think it is refreshing and or myth-busting to know there's a lot of people that didn't come up with quite as much made available to them.
BEN: Yeah, and I would argue, I would argue that playing … I played at Finley Golf Course in Chapel Hill. I played at a private club up until the recession of 2008. Both my parents worked in the housing industry. So just got pummeled. But at the public golf course, you know, you would never get that great of lies. Or when I was practicing at the chipping green, it wasn't a perfect green. It wasn't perfect around it. There was tons of divots.
So I'd practice out of those hard lies, like practice into the grain and divots and bad lies in the sand and got really good at being creative there. And then flash forward, now I'm playing on more perfect lies on tour and, like, the short game feels easy because my entire life of perfecting my craft when I was a kid. Now when you're a kid, you have so much more time to practice and stuff. When you get older, it's hard to manage everything. But when you're a kid, that's when you have your years of taking advantage of being able to have school, but outside of that, I mean, you can do whatever you want. Like take advantage of being able to get good at something. And so I spent so many hours, countless hours, practicing crazy shots, hard shots, bad lies, even like going out on the course, like the fairways are a little shaggy from time to time, the greens are a little slow, but you know now I'm out here on perfect conditions. Even once I got to college or playing, I'd go to tournaments and be a little bit better. And some guys that maybe are in a private club that's perfect and they have the Trackmans or whatever.
We'll go to these tournaments, maybe complain about conditions, that could maybe be a thing. And for me, I thought it was better. So I had an advantage because I was prepared for something like that. So I would argue, like, it doesn't … you don't necessarily have to have all the resources in the world to be really good at something. And you see these stories all the time in all different sports, and people come up from different backgrounds and breaking through and making it. And I think it really comes down to what you got to, you got to love the game, and you got to be super confident, but you got to be prepared.
MASON: Thank you for sharing that. I love hearing that. And you had mentioned after you won the Charles Schwab Challenge, something I think along these lines, which was because you had missed, what'd you say, you missed the last six greens? You didn't hit the last six greens?
BEN: Yep.
MASON: To win that golf tournament, you had to call on your short game basically to save you. And it goes back to hitting, I think you said in your interviews, it went back to, you know … you didn't have 17 buckets of balls because they cost money. You'd maximize your time practicing over in the short-game area, which is such an amazing connection to that experience to then …
BEN: Totally.
MASON: You're on a professional golf tour, having to hit chip shots and pitch shots and save things and hit nervy four-footers. And you're like, "Yeah, I've, I've been there. I can handle this."
BEN: Totally.
MASON: A couple more things I want to ask you. I feel like I have license to ask you one really stupid question or ridiculous one. Here it is.
Let's say next season you played 25 events. That's very low for you, but let's just say you played 25 events, and you …
BEN: What would I do with my time?
MASON: Yeah, that's not the stupid question. But yeah, that'd be a good one. You could remodel your house. If you were … 25 events and you had to choose: You could win one while missing 24 cuts or get 25 second-place finishes. What would you choose and why out of those options? I know it's ridiculous …
BEN: Yeah, I mean, I would say 25 second-place finishes for sure. There's a lot of money being paid to the guys who finished second. I think Kevin Kisner used to talk about that …
MASON: Yeah, OK, Kevin Kisner, sure.
BEN: He'd be like … they'd interview Kisner, and he'd be like, "I have no chance of winning." "Why are you playing this week?" "They pay a whole lot for top 20s."
MASON: Yeah, absolutely. Plus you get the points. Plus you can qualify for teams. Plus you can qualify for majors. So there's a lot there.
BEN: I mean, I would arguably be number, I'd probably be number one in the world without a win, if I finished second 25 times. Actually, I 100% would be.
MASON: Yeah, you would be.
BEN: You would be … I would be the best golfer in the world, and I would have never won that year. That's pretty cool.
MASON: You would be taking some heat off of Tommy Fleetwood. The news story would be Ben Griffin, the guy who gets second place every week. All right. That's good to know. Plus, that question is a little bit biased by the fact you have won. So you're not, you don't have the burden of not having won. So you could just take second place. Now, from ridiculous to a little bit deeper, I've always thought that a professional golfer spends most of their life, not just in and around golf, but having to talk about golf. You're talking about yourself playing golf. Do you have to work hard to figure out who you are as a person without golf?
I mean, you're engaged. At some point, you'll be a husband. Hopefully in the future, you may be a father. There may be other ways you identify, you know, in the future, you're a son, there's other things, there's other parts of you, but you sure spend a lot of your life just golf, golf, golf, golf, golf. How do you try to figure out who you are in a world where golf is so present in your life?
BEN: Yeah, golf is life. I mean, yeah, it's an interesting sport. I can't … it's like … you can't even compare to any other sports because other sports you're at home majority of your time.
You play in the NFL, you're at home 350 days a year. Like, you play golf, you're home 35 days a year. So like you can be, I mean, most guys are more, but yeah, you're definitely like, you know, fortunately right now I don't have kids. I'm not focused on necessarily being a dad and investing in like a family life. But right now, it's full golf. I'm at my, you know, earning years of being able to take advantage of having a great talent and trying to maximize what I can do now to where, you know, in the future, I have kids and whatnot, maybe the focus shifts a touch.
But yeah, it's totally like golf is basically like life. Everything revolves around golf pretty much like in these years right now. I guess I'm engaged to Dana, and she's in full support of my golf career. She loves traveling. I was asking her what she wants for her birthday, August 3rd, it's Sunday right before the playoffs.
She's like, "I just want the Wyndham Championship trophy." So like she's invested in this as much as I am, which is really cool. And you kind of have to have that because everyone has their own business. Everyone has their own tee times. Everyone has their own stuff going on at these tournaments. So it's really hard to kind of hang out with other players. You're just on different time schedules, even though we're all doing the same thing. And so having, you know, that person by your side is extremely important.
And you know, right now it's just … yeah, we're just focused on that. I mean, yeah, we're buying a new house and whatnot. But like, I'm not even too worried about … I don't even care to go home. You know, it's like …
MASON: Man, you're in the zone.
BEN: I just love being able to travel, and it's really cool, and nothing … I can't even describe the feelings and emotions like when I made that putt at Charles Schwab on the last hole. You know, those moments are so freaking cool. And it's an out-of-body experience when you win on tour because you lose so often.
And chasing those moments is an unbelievable feeling. And it's something that I want to continue to kind of replicate and get back in the mix soon because it's … I can't compare it to anything, going back to, even when I was working, it's like you get a paycheck or you close a deal or, you know, find a first time homebuyer and get them their first mortgage and whatever it was I was doing. Like, yes, it's a good feeling, and it feels awesome to do that. But like when you make a putt, and you know how much hard work you put into your golf game, and you win a golf tournament, like it is the coolest … I can't describe the feeling. It's just the coolest thing in the world. And so I'm just chasing that. And that's pretty much how my life revolves around right now.
MASON: I always say, "I can only imagine." I can't imagine. And I think that the way you're describing how much you put into it and how it is all-encompassing in your life to then have a win, when winning is so rare, even for the best players. You've played in almost a hundred events, probably professionally, and you've won twice, and you're one of the best. You're a top 20 player in the world, and you've won twice. Like, the math isn't great on winning. So it's got to be just mind-blowing experience when it happens. It's all that work and everything pays off.
BEN: Totally. Yeah, like if you're a tennis player, if you're a basketball player, like you have individual games every day. Even tennis, like you don't win tournaments that often, but at least you're winning matches. Like you're beating someone. Like, yes, golf, like you're, beating, I got finished 10th, I beat 140 guys, but it's not the same feel. Cause like you get done with the tournament, and, like, you lose. Like it's a … NBA, NFL, you have individual games, like unless, you know, unless your team in the NFL is really struggling, which has happened to several teams the last few years, like, you're still winning, you know, at least a few times.
And golf, you get beat down a lot. And so you got to enjoy some of the weeks, and you might finish fifth, and you got to take the positives from it. And you got to take positives really from every week because this game can beat you down. But yeah, those winning feelings are really, really special. And you got to embrace them and want to keep … and like for me, I need to keep wanting to have those same feelings because that's what's going to push me kind of going forward.
MASON: Love it. Just a couple more questions, and we'll let you go. Great segue in going forward. What … I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong. Do you have to … do you … are you a big goals guy? You have goals that you set out every year, and do you have to, if the answer to that is yes, do you, as the year goes on, do you have to tweak those just a little bit? How do you think about that? And then the third part is, and what do you got going forward? Like, what are you trying to do here over the next, I don't know, couple of years?
BEN: I'm different from probably majority of golfers. I don't set like goals on winning or accomplishments or anything that kind of compares me to someone else. I set my goals more on myself and what I can accomplish individually and process-wise. So like it could be anything from getting into the gym and getting a little bit stronger, attaining, you know … trying to get somewhere with maybe my golf swing a little bit, making proper like goals and set those each day to like, "I need to get more here in my golf swing," because that's going to help me be more fluid and whatnot.
And then maybe it could be a goal about like course management, or how I'm going to play a course, or how I'm going to, you know, talk to my caddie that week. There's a lot of different goals, and I change them on the fly. I change them pretty much every day, but they all get me to where I want to be to be able to achieve maybe a lifetime goal of being like a Ryder Cup or being a major champion, being some of those things.
If I can focus on these process goals, it's going to allow me to achieve the bigger-picture goals that I don't necessarily set. But you know, I've asked myself like, "All right, when I'm 80 and I'm looking back on my life, what do I want to do?" I don't want to have any regrets. What do I want to try to accomplish? And what do want to see myself as? And I like, yes, I want to win the Masters. I want to be that, you know, one of the greats in the game of golf. I want to be a Hall of Famer, blah, blah, blah.
But OK, I could set those goals now, but how do I get to those goals? And that's what you have to focus on. I can write these goals and check the boxes if I accomplish them at the end of the year or not or whatever, but that doesn't really do much for me, at least mentally. I've got to focus on the process goals and doing everything I can each day to kind of make sure I'm on the right path.
MASON: Love it. Last question. What are you excited about … optimistic, looking forward? And it could be golf or not golf. Just like you're getting married. I mean, what are you excited about looking into the future?
BEN: Yeah, I have a lot of awesome things. And I talk to Dana all the time about just like how cool our lives are. It's cool to sit back and, like, think about like what I've accomplished, but also like what the future holds, like golf is one of those games where it's super cyclical, and you can easily like fall off the PGA Tour. And fortunately for me, like winning a couple of times, I kind of have like, this is my first time in my golf career where I've kind of had a game plan almost for future years where I know I'm in every single golf tournament next year.
But yeah, I think my future looks a little more like traveling more internationally and playing golf, like going and maybe playing a few DP World events. I think that'll be really cool. And a lot of my … I guess you call mentors or people that have had some success in life, they always talk about how they wish they traveled the world more and seen new places. And I think that's the awesome thing about golf is I'm able to do that while doing my job.
So I'm going to try to take advantage of that the rest of the year. And then obviously getting married is very exciting part of my life. And, yeah, a lot of really cool, positive things. I'm, very, I mean, I'm just so grateful. It's just crazy. The amount of things that have happened in my life the last couple months. And I'm just trying to stay focused and not choke up too much about what I kind of have accomplished and how my life is, but just keep living and taking advantage of opportunities, meeting new people, and just having as much fun as possible.
MASON: I love it. So are you going to the Scottish Open?
BEN: It's funny because I say I'm excited to play more internationally, and I'm actually not playing the Scottish. I played it the last two. I played it the last two years. The reason being is I want to prepare for the Open, the Open Championship. If I play the Scottish, I know my Monday is … 'cause I'm good at managing my body and stuff. I know I wouldn't do much on Monday at the Open. So I'd only play nine holes Tuesday and Wednesday. And I don't think that's enough preparation into a major. So the only reason I'm skipping the Scottish is to actually get to Ireland on Friday and be there, get adjusted to the time zone, and start seeing that golf course. But in the fall, I'm hoping to go to maybe Spain or some other places and play some of those DP World events.
MASON: Plus you got Augusta. Plus we're hoping you're on the Ryder Cup team. I mean, there's the house, Dana, it all sounds great, man. Congratulations.
BEN: Yeah, I know it. Thank you.
MASON: And we're thrilled that you won our event. We're just thrilled for you of the successes you're having. We're thrilled you won our event. And I … we haven't had a repeat winner. I'd love for you to come back and maybe give it a go next year and see if we can't get you another car, another trophy, all the stuff.
BEN: Yeah, maybe I need to look at building a bigger garage next year to prepare for the Charles Schwab.
MASON: Don't jinx it. Don't jinx it. All right, Ben, really appreciate it. Good luck this week and just good luck with the rest of the season and everything else you're doing. Appreciate the time.
BEN: Yeah, of course.
MASON: So that's it for us today. Thanks for listening. Ben's handle on TikTok, Instagram, and X is @BenGriffinGolf for all three, if you want to give him a follow. For all of Schwab's golf content, our films, tournament news, and promotions, check out Schwabgolf.com.
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